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Re: albemuth
:: Posted by thoregil on October 10, 2016

As a concert photographer I must confess that my trigger finger was itching during the fab concert in Oslo on September 26th, but I had no problem whatsoever with respecting the bands request for no photographing. And this isnít your usual rock concert. The setting is more like a classical concert, where you are supposed to sit down and shut the fuck up until the conductor turns toward the audience and bows. There was no-one on stage shouting "Helloo Osloooo - are you having a great tiiiime?" There was no crowdsurfing (Robert Fripp surfing around the room would certainly have been worth a photo), no inbetween songs banter - Hardly any interaction with the audience at all from the band. Just full concentration on the music.

I just wish all of the audience could have been on the same level. There were some morons drinking with both hands and talking from start to end. Oh, please throw them out of the room next time.

Thor Egil

Not only that!
:: Posted by Bakullama on October 08, 2016

And itís also very exciting (if not even mui mysterioso) to know now,  that no King Crimson song was ever really ever meant to be ífinishedí... All works in progress as shown by this lineup. Thats progressive, and thatís really something special.  So instead of the old songs fading away and dying, these now live and grow quite nicely.

...another superb summer..2015..repeats in 2016...amazingly
:: Posted by AndrewJohn on October 08, 2016

...some of us are blessed...and as we head towards the end of British Summer Time KC related things hold sway in my balance of the good & great;

Bill Brufordís Autobiography - wonderful read.
Tony Levinís Fragile As A Song - get it at the merch stall!
That KC continues on and 2 nights in Aylesbury were so fine!

...thanks DGM again...

..advice for the fans from a fan...that programme is a good buy get it from a fan; it aids memory....leave your mobile at home youíre never going to get as good pictures anyway.

Live in the moment and that means now...ie cKonKcurrently.

...audience attention...
:: Posted by AndrewJohn on October 08, 2016

There is no greater experience,nothing close to being/finding yourself in the moment. As much attention is required from the listener/audient and often audience as the performer to get to experience that moment or period of music.

Timing is crucial but none of us are the same. Huge compromises are required to really bring a blend to enable the creation of a hot date or a ídescending angelsí moment. Also lots of other completely random and unexpected events within the same space can collude to create a musical nirvana. A lack of control can bring havoc as can an obvious implementation of it.

Frippís apparent on stage coldness/control has for me been his way of transferring his attention & energy to his ears, hands and head so that frees up his ability to express through the playing of his guitar. He may wince at himself, we may wince at a statuesque guitar hero but boy do some some sounds and music come forth!

At the Aynsley Lister gig at Burnley Mechanics recently audience attention could be measured and may I say me and my brother did just that. It was intimate, perhaps 200 with an older demographic in a very sociable mood with a band on great form. AL is a star, perhaps hiding but definitely shining. Importantly though the hubbub heard during the first half of the first set eased and by the final half of the second half, strangley after the intermission,there was almost no sound from the enraptured audience. I like to believe that AL won their attention, but the strange thing is the band were as good and on it at the start as they were with the last piece.

Why pay good money to see and listen, and yet then not be courteous to those who only wish to see and hear. The Public Bar was there for a reason.
Please shut up and letís listen to the band, they have far more to say than we have during their performance.

:: Posted by davidly on October 08, 2016

If three corners of the Crimson experience from the fan perspective are represented by listening to studio recordings of original compositions, witnessing those compositions played live, and listening to recordings of those live performances, then Radical Action represents more than just the final corner. It circles the triangle quite nicely.

:: Posted by albemuth on October 07, 2016

If DGM does not like my "draconian" post, then donít bother posting it.  I donít want to stir up old dust.  To restate my point more briefly: I understand KCís photo/recording policy and do not think they should change it.  KCís music and stage presence is more like a traditional (non-rock) concert, which is hurt by these kinds of disruptions.  But if you are in the audience, this seemingly simple and obvious policy has unintended consequences, against the backdrop of 21st century technology and roving ushers with flashlights.  Maybe the show I attended just happened to have more problems than usual but, even though I enjoyed the concert and am glad I went, I would not do it again.

My earlier post was trying to make what I thought was a more interesting point, and maybe even a new one, that many artists who appear to approve of photography and recording, actually might not.  Perhaps they are tolerating it as a necessary evil; they want an enthusiastic, participatory crowd, although maybe not with the videos!  It would be interesting to know the true feelings of the musical community.  If I am right, this would be hard, since the bandís stated policy would not necessarily be in line with their own opinions and preferences.

KC has its own definitions of "participation" and "attention" and, in the past, Fripp has used them to measure other bands. In one of his 1980s articles, Fripp showed a pop star rocking the crowd and said something like "this energy comes from a nasty quarter."  I still see some value in Frippís ideas, but certainly not as a universal measuring rod. 

Re: albemuth
:: Posted by mikefrost on October 06, 2016

"Iím a big fan of Kanye West..."

Nuff said.

:: Posted by albemuth on October 06, 2016

I donít disagree with KCís phone policy.  It sets the right tone for KCís idea of a musical/spiritual event and it satisfies the bandís view of intellectual property.

But if you are in the audience, the steps taken to stop phone use are almost as distracting as the actual use of phones, since ushers are constantly patrolling the aisles and shining flashlights in peopleís faces.   After the Toronto show I attended, I asked one of the ushers about this.  He said that steady disruptions are unavoidable with a no-phones policy at a popular music show and that enforcement was just as unpleasant for the people who work at the venue (because of all sorts of arguments and misunderstandings). 

None of this is to say I believe KC should allow phone use; that really would not work at a KC show.  However, it remains true that with someone like Kanye West, all of the raucous crowd activity is part of the show itself.  Where else can you hear 15 thousand people screaming "twenty-first century schizoid man"?  As Fripp would say "You just had to be there."

What do I enjoy more at this point?  After years of conditioning, I am on pins and needles at a KC show (not because I myself am trying to record but because I assume others are).  My wife (God love her) says "letís go to another KC concert."  But I have to beg off.  I will always love KC but am not overly enthusiastic about the live shows.  The KC "hot date" is too much like a visit to the Stalag 13 of Hoganís Heroes (a horrible American sit com).  I prefer the KC "love letter," the official DGM one!

West Ghost Crim
:: Posted by davidly on October 06, 2016

It is Universal Music Group that has the arm strong enough to have content scanned & identified & removed immediately. Whether or not Kanye West cares is secondary. Given the atmosphere you describe, it doesnít sound like something he loses sleep over. I can imagine that the live performance of his music might be the kind that not only doesnít suffer from it, but lends itself to this kind of participation ó as in, enhancing the experience. On the other hand, a Crimson concert that included a phone aloft per metre-cubed would be, in my opinion, rendered of far less aesthetic value than no concert at all.

Copyright agonistes
:: Posted by albemuth on October 05, 2016

Iím a big fan of Kanye West and went to one of his concerts/revival meetings/frat parties recently (before the robbery).  Part of any Kanye show is the loud crowd reaction.  The band often stops in its tracks and the crowd bellows back the nutty lyrics in unison and on tempo.  And it seems like everyone is taking pictures of Kanye on his floating stage (with motion in x, y, z, and tilt).  This time I decided to join the fun and take some videos with my phone.  The results were remarkably good and I posted a single blueboob video the next day (my very first).  The day after, I received a copyright "strike" from blueboob and am locked out of my account (which contains only the deleted video!)

Thatís a surprising result, to me anyway.  I always assumed that artists who let the audience film did not object to material ending up online.  But that turns out not to be true.  The really big artists must hire an army of people to check up even on phone videos and order the material to be taken down. 

I also like Ghost a great deal.  They also allow crowd participation, from bellowing the lyrics to making videos with their phones.  (Aside from particularly loud bellowing, I donít mind the crowd activity; for me, it adds to the show.)  But Ghost DOES let fans post long videos of their shows.  The question is do they let fans do this because they truly donít mind and maybe even approve, or because they disapprove but donít want to spoil the fanís fun (and the bandís career).  If it is the second thing, then it seems likely that, later on, at a certain threshold of success, they would hire people (or a service) to remove their intellectual property.  That probably costs a lot of money that most bands do not have. 

We seem to be living in a sort of "totalitarianism of the phone" where every musician must make a difficult choice. From this standpoint, there are at least four types of band decisions:
1. Allow the audience to video, but police the websites.  (Kanye West)
2. Allow the audience to video and post, but only for the sake of building a following.  (Ghost)
3. Impose draconian measures to minimize recording of any kind.  (King Crimson)
4. Be overjoyed if any audience member makes a video and posts it online.  (my own band)
Each band has its own response the issue of phone use during concerts. Take a look at Tony Levin's recent comments on the shows in Wroclaw.
Sometimes when I look at my images of the audience at end of show, Iím struck how lucky we are that they now hold off on cellphone use until then.

Last June, touring with Peter Gabriel, it looked this way during the show, and it really interferes with everyoneís enjoyment of the music.

King Crimson politely ask people not to record their concerts but allow as may photos etc as people want when Tony Levin picks up his camera. Thatís an interesting definition of what you call draconian.

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